Episode Transcript:
Matt Eyles:
Hi everyone, and welcome to the Next Big Thing in Health, a podcast from AHIP. I'm one of your hosts Matt Eyles.
Laura Evans:
And I'm Laura Evans.
Eyles:
I'm really excited to welcome you to today's episode. We have incredible guests for you today, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation.
Evans:
On this podcast, we typically only get to talk about health policy and health outcomes with experts, CEOs, and policymakers. But today, not only will we get to talk about how we can work together to improve mental health outcomes for Americans nationwide, we will also provide some concrete steps that anyone not just a health policy wonk can use. Today, we are talking to the people behind the popular mental health brand Calm, and I am so excited that we not only get to talk to CEO David Ko. But we are also joined by Jeff Warren, one of comms daily meditation instructors who will be leading us I'm so so excited about this on a guided meditation.
Eyles:
Yes, this really is a special episode. And I think everyone knows that Calm is an award winning app used for guided meditation and sleep. It also provides access to a library of mindfulness content that target themes, including anxiety, panic, work, stress, sleep quality, and more. I use it personally, actually, our family has the Calm family plan. And I'm a true believer that meditation can be invaluable for people who are busy, stressed out, or just want to boost their mood and mindfulness. We bring this conversation to you as part of AHIP's activities for Mental Health Awareness Month. And during today's conversation, we will talk about our nation's overarching mental health crisis. We'll hear from experts about what steps need to be taken to help Americans, as well as the link between mindfulness, meditation, sleep, and overall mental health. Welcome, all. Thanks for joining us today.
David Ko:
Thank you for having me here.
Eyles:
That's great. Why don't we jump right in. And as I noted earlier, this is Mental Health Awareness Month, and everyone deserves access to effective, affordable, equitable mental health care and addiction services. And let's be clear, good mental health is good health and vice versa. And we're thrilled to welcome CEO of Calm David Ko to our podcast to talk about this critical issue. David, I had the pleasure of meeting you personally in California at a lunch. And sharing, you know, some of my personal experiences with Calm, and it was so great to be able to have that conversation. But could you just introduce yourself and Calm and tell us a little bit about what motivates all of you to do what you do?
Ko:
Yeah, thank you. So thank you, Matt, Laura, and the AHIP team, we're a big fan of your podcast. So thank you for having us here today. And Jeff, I feel like I just saw you even though it was through Calm on your daily trip. And so I think that put me in even better mind frame for today's important discussion. So Matt, I joined Calm as the CEO last year. And it followed the acquisition of my previous company called Ripple Health Group. And that group actually was created in 2019 as a family caregiving platform that would supplement and support payer-provider care management teams. I created that company because of how I watched my mother take care of her mother, who was actually turning 100 this June in Korea. And when I was watching her care for her mother, I noticed that she was doing so much of it on paper in one of the most advanced technology countries in the world. There she is writing everything down on paper, and really kind of stressing about the daily activities and taking care of her own mother. So hence the company was formed, we and we started growing very quickly as the pandemic hit.
Ko:
And everyone started coming back home during a lockdown. And so during that time, I actually met and had spent a lot of time with the co-founders of Calm. So Michael Acton Smith and Alex Tew, and I've been an advisor with them since 2018. And what we had noticed was that many family caregivers, especially were unpaid, were having mental health issues. And that was just exacerbated, obviously, during the pandemic. And so we really talked about how could we come together and think about this going forward? So I was really in awe of what the Calm team had done to help to destigmatize health and make it even more accessible for so many people. And on a personal note, as a father of two daughters who are 15 and 12, they would tell you they're 16 and 13, I was really committed to being in a place where we're working on much more preventive care, and not just reactive care. And so this I thought was a great step, if we could all come together. Michael and Alex saw that as well. And hence, here we are today, which is just fantastic.
Evans:
Well, I know how the 13 and 16 year old or the 12, and the 15 year old roll, because I've got two of those, too. So David, thank you for doing this, because I implore my kids to to get involved and to listen to Calm. I am an early adopter. I've been using Calm for 10 years, huge fan. I worked in news for 25 years and used it really as a way to cope with yeah, all that I was experiencing and seeing on the streets as a reporter. So it's been very helpful to me, and it's a great service that you're providing. I'd love to hear more about the tools provided by Calm. As you know, we've been talking about this America has this mental health crisis that is growing at a fast pace, intensified, as you said, by the pandemic. I know your app has a variety of themes, can you tell us about how you choose those themes, how you decide on what you're going to put out, and then walk me through how your users are using those themes?
Ko:
Sure. And thank you, both of you using the product. For those of you who don't use the product that can back up just a bit. I often like to tell people that Calm is a company that wants to be with you every step of the way, in your mental health journey. And some of you may know us by using it for meditation, others may know us by sleep. But we've continued to evolve and become so much more than that. Really thinking about it as a trusted home base, even for your mental health support, whether it's on your own, or whether it's in the workforce, or whether it's through a payer or provider. And by focusing on that trust piece is really helped us to reach over 100 million people who have downloaded the product and growing in over 3,000 businesses to date and growing to help manage these things in our daily lives.
Ko:
And going back to your question about like the verticals and how we think about our content. So much of that, in the beginning was personal because we had to start it from that perspective. But as the product has continued to evolve, what's really happened is we're constantly getting feedback from our members and users. And thery're such a passionate group, because mental health, it really takes a village in so many instances. And you know, when we listen to our users that come to us, whether it's through the App Store feedback, or communities or customer care, they've kind of told us what they're looking for.
Ko:
So I'll give you a couple of examples of that. You know, when you're having in the moment, stress and anxiety, one of the highest search terms on our product to date is anxiety. And so we extended our content library for managing stress and anxiety with non-meditation types of movement tools from our clinical psychologists for helping you manage panic attacks, or when you just feel emotionally overwhelmed. When you're at work. We all know that as we've come back to work off the pandemic, that's actually another top driver of stress for so many Americans today. And it's just critical that we in the workplace provide our employees tools that they need to navigate the stresses of work. That's why in our app, for example, we've created a whole section around for work and how you manage those daily stresses and challenges. Others that come with our very own Jeff Warren, for example, if you hadn't heard it, it's just fantastic because it's recently produced. It's around like ADHD support. And so, Jeff working with our clinical psychologists, have launched a whole mindfulness series. And it's really helping people who feel nervous, anxious, you know, and stress, and how can they handle that in their daily lives? And lastly, as we think about where does that leave from a clinical perspective, our Calm health team is building out a whole new content library today that really gathers input from payers and providers and helps them address those needs for condition-specific mental health programs. So those are just a couple of examples, how we're taking content and continuing to evolve that in our product.
Eyles:
Yeah, that's great to hear that connection with your clinical team. And you also, David, mentioned stigma, and I know that one of the things that's so important to our health plan members is to finally try and put an end to the stigma associated with mental health. I know I've said it publicly before in different settings that if there is a silver lining if there is one to be had from the pandemic perhaps once and for all, we can put an end to the stigma around mental health and we've seen it feed into our popular culture. Ted Lasso, we've seen professional athletes, Senator Fetterman most recently taken care of his mental health. And we know how important it is to remove barriers and negative associations. What are some of the ways that you think that Calm can help people take charge of their own mental health and normalize really what's just an important part of overall wellness?
Ko:
Yeah, and thank you, Matt, on that. I mean, by the way, I love Ted Lasso, such a big fan. I haven't met anyone who is not a big fan of that show. I think we also have many Ted Lasso moments within our own workplace. So big fan of that. You mentioned things that are so important, just now. I would tell you, it is so incredible to see how much more approachable the discussion around mental health has become over the past few years, especially here in the United States. You know, it's something for me, where we have welcomed influential voices to our platform, such as Camilla Cabello and Harry Styles, and the U.S. Surgeon General, to create their own mental health and sleep resources and to expand that important conversation around mental health.
Ko:
But with that said, it really is going to take more than just one brand, or one person, for example, to help us prioritize our mental health, just like we do our physical health, we're really going to have to all come together. It's actually one of the biggest reasons why we're so focused on expanding access or resources beyond the App Store, for example. 2019, that is our Calm business team, which we launched help to bring that to employers, and really bring that to the workplace. And that's how we've grown so quickly by thinking about mindfulness tools in the workplace. We also late last year announced what we're doing with Calm Health, with payers and providers. And again, it's the same thing. So you really want to meet people where they are today, because it is something that as it becomes much more approachable. Now, it's about like, well, how do I enter that discussion? And how do I do it in a thoughtful manner, and be comfortable in that manner? And you know, whether it's obviously folks like Jeff helping us along in that journey, as well, we've all have a place to play here.
Evans:
Yeah. And, Jeff, I do want to get you in on this conversation and talk about more about stigma and myths, and debunking those myths around meditation. How do you normalize this? I tried to normalize this among my kids, I would do a mindful minute before we leave for school when they were in elementary school, and I would make them sit down, and we're gonna sit and be quiet for one minute. And my 15 year old told me she just want to go to a meditation session. And I'm like, Okay, well, maybe it maybe this worked. But I don't know that I actually am normalizing this for the kids. But I do feel like they're having more conversations about it, like it is more cool to take a moment to breathe. Are you finding that is a thing and that more people are talking about this, that it is more normalized? And how do you get to telling them, you know, telling your audience about special training, like special skills? Do you have to sit in a certain way? Do you have to, you know, all of that stuff? Do you have to be a Zen master, you know? Talk to us about what meditation is and is not.
Warren:
A journalist once wrote an article describing me as the anti-Buddha. Not against Buddhism, I love Buddhism, or against any tradition in which those came from not at all. But my natural disposition is not placid and calm. I'm a very excitable person with ADHD, the kind of person that I think you would on the outside, you'd think meditation must be utterly impossible for me. But that's turned out to not be the case. And because it's been so beneficial, that's why I've spent my entire adult life trying to think about how to get those benefits to others, which is why Calm is really the perfect partner because they think about it so creatively. Think of that challenge really creatively.
Warren:
So I'll just back up. The stigma is absolutely changing. We're in a moment where, because the issues around mental health are so pointed, there's also a lot of conversations about interventions. There's a lot of conversations more now about therapy, but therapy, being more public about mindfulness, about psychedelic medicine. Across the board, people are very interested in how we can begin to address some of these issues. And I really think of mindfulness as being at the headwaters of the skills that you need to learn. I mean, a mindfulness practice, a meditation practice doesn't just shift your state in the moment to be more grounded or relaxed or less in the spin cycle. It also is a training over time that can transform how you relate to the world around you how you relate to yourself. I mean, it's a deep training in specific attentional skills.
Warren:
So in terms of what Calm do, I mean Calm offer both interventions in the moment, some of them specifically tailored to particular issues people may have, but they also offer this regular like the daily trip that daily Calm. Those are regular touchstones of practice, where you're coming back again and again. You're learning specific skills around clarity and concentration and equanimity and compassion. And those are getting, the more you repeat them, the more they build up, the more that flows out into the rest of your day.
Warren:
So now in terms of how to make that approachable, I mean, for myself, I always start with just honest discussion of my own failings and challenges as a human being like, this is where I get into trouble. This is where I find challenging, and then this is what helps and that's how I come up with the daily trips, I literally watch myself in the day and whatever way that I'm having a problem like, okay, how can I create a practice around that that other people will relate to, I mean, other people can relate to so many of these things. So you disarm people by being vulnerable and open about your own situation. And that allows them to kind of go in and try it out. And then the other important thing is to not make it a big deal. If you make it into this big giant deal. Like it has to be this intimidating thing, you got to be in a particular position, that's where people are like, well forget it. That's not me, I'm not the Zen master, that'll never happen. But if you really explain to people how the essence of meditation, like what those skills are, and that the essence of practice is really just existing, you can do it, you already exist. It's about just sitting, letting yourself be a person here. And then you point out in a very kind of intentional way, but common sense way, what are the skills that support that? Well, there's a bit of a focus skill of like, say, choosing a breath, there's a bit of an insight or clarity skill around noticing when you're off, feeding your thoughts and coming back, there's an equanimity skill about being okay with the weirdness of this, or the fact that this room is kind of loud. You point out what the skills are, you show how people already know what they are. And that gives them confidence to kind of get into the practice.
Warren:
And then of course, it's like what we heard from Kirsten and for others, who who write into calm and are constantly writing emails, as you do the experiment, very quickly, you start to get the feedback, you start to see that actually, I do feel more calm and more centered in my life, and more available to the people in my life. And this is working, I don't know, quite know how this is working, but it's working. And so you start to create that reward feedback that then keeps it easier. And so then you have this issue of the design challenge. So once people are moving in that stream, how can you offer, you know, all those kinds of supports and all the different areas of the person's life? And, and that's why I love working with Calm, it's just always as creative thinking about, okay, and where are people? They're on their devices? Okay, so given that they're gonna be on their devices, what can we offer through the devices that's going to support that?
Warren:
Meet them where they are.
Ko:
Meet them where they are. Absolutely.
Eyles:
Phenomenal. And I've even noticed that personally, I recently got diagnosed with some high blood pressure, and I measured my blood pressure before and after the meditation. And it's remarkable how it physically affects you in that way. And it's been wonderful to experience that. David, so maybe we can shift for a moment just to telehealth because we talk about telehealth so much on this podcast, and we know how important it is to removing barriers, especially in the area of mental health. And I think we've all seen the statistics of just about how incredible the growth has been. And the number of people actually, I think it's like 60% of patients prefer telehealth for mental health. And so there's clearly something about being tied to a mechanism of receiving care that's comfortable, convenient, and sort of taking our minds off of the stress that can actually be associated with trying to get into an office-based setting, and Calm certainly makes taking care of our mental health easier by putting so many tools just right in the palm of our own hands. But how do you and Calm think about the future of technology and mental health support?
Ko:
Yeah, Matt, thank you for that. And you know, you and Laura both do a great job of talking through technology on your podcast, and not just obviously telehealth, a lot of the technology has been there. But the adoption of that technology has jumped dramatically based on even those numbers you shared over the last few years, driven by things like the pandemic, where now across all age demographics, you see a lot more comfortableness using some of that technology that's been there before.
Ko:
I believe that technology will continue to play a critical role in the future of mental health support, in my opinion. And like Laura said, because it's always going to be there, so you got to meet you where you are. But you know, on the other flip side of that, there's been a significant increase in demand, for example, for therapists and mental health professionals, as you know. And the system is having a really hard time just keeping up. And when you look at some of the numbers today, 59% of people suffering with mental health don't get the care that they need due to that scarcity of accessibility, affordability, and some of the specialists.
Ko:
And so we really want to be in a place where we help to relieve some of that burden from the health care system, not adding more complexity to the system, but really providing supplemental tools in a way through technology. So when you're waiting to be seen by a therapist, or helping you to better triage, to the better appropriate level of care. And as we all know that therapy doesn't always need to be that first line of care for people on the lower end of the acuity curve for anxiety or depression. That's where digital tools can come in, to help them get the care that they need, while they wait, where they find that person that will help them in their mental health journey going forward.
Evans:
David, I'm curious about the feedback you get from consumers about how Calm or maybe other meditation apps, too, how that fits into their mental health care overall, is the meditation about mental health maintenance? Do they see it as an important element of their health care? Or is it a little bit of both? What are you hearing?
Ko:
It's kind of a little bit of everything, Laura, in my opinion, and it's in there, because Calm has been transformational to millions of people's lives. And we get this direct feedback daily, as we were talking about whether it's in the App Store, the two and a half million reviews, social media, customer care. And because of that, it gets really personal. And you know, a lot of times when folks know that we're associated, and I think Jeff gets this as well, with Calm, I've had people come up to me and really share the impact that Calm has had on their lives. And that just gives you another added weight of responsibility in terms of doing what we do today. And we know that we've helped people through their grief, help them to manage their mental health impacts of chronic illness, family trauma, workplace burnout, and so much more.
Ko:
And so in terms of like meditation, and even the things that Jeff has called out earlier, we want you to put that in your mental health toolkit. And I often talk about this, even with my own kids, just like you were doing, about how the mind and body are so closely connected. And we need to create these right types of habits, and taking care of our minds just like they do with taking care of your body. And I think about it like this, and I've said this to my own kids. I've said to them, sometimes you take care of your phone battery better than you do yourself. And do you ever wonder about that? Like, do you ever wonder why when your phone battery is getting low, you're rushing everywhere to go plug it in? And what if we thought about taking care of our minds the same way? So if there are things that you find that are making it more draining, what are those things, and if you find things that are helping you, with your mind and your body, like write down what those things are, and let's focus more on the pluses than on the minuses. And so I often give them some of those analogies, because you've talked about earlier with your own family or your own kids, you got to speak to them in a language and keep it simple. And I think the battery analogy really resonates with them.
Evans:
I will be using that tonight. Thank you.
Ko:
Yeah. And I'd love to hear from Jeff, too, Jeff, you know, you know, some of this. We talked about this all the time, if you don't mind, like, what are the things some of the things you think about?
Warren:
Well, I mean, I think about how meditation is probably the most powerful single force for technology for transformation that humanity has discovered. I mean, it's been out there for thousands of years. It's so powerful, because like I said, it doesn't just shift your state in the moment, but it kind of trains your nervous system to find a certain quality of space of ease in the midst of the hurly burly of life. And so when you connect to that, not only do you get this deep reset, which has all of these downstream benefits, and therefore it's kind of a central pillar and maintenance or preventive and mental health. But you also get real healing, because you see where previous patterns or ways in which you've been holding yourself have created all this tension and suffering and challenge. And there's been all of this stuff in your life that's kind of like coagulated in this one area and just through the act of sitting with the right prompts, or just the right, you know, coming back to it again and again, these things start to let go. And people describe these incredible transformations where their whole outlook changes where they're suddenly opened up to get clear about a particular issue.
Warren:
I mean, I get thousands of emails from people so I'm just so and I see when I'm teaching retreats as well. And so I mean, I think that is like the key to taking mental health in your own hands, it's about having external structures like Calm like all the different structures that we can thinking but it also has to do with finding your own practice, like what is your own mind body thing that's gonna most help support you? What do you already know about what you do? And that's why it's good to have different kinds of practices on tap for people like sleep practices, or music practices, or straight up meditation practices or movement practices, because everyone's going to find a slightly different medicine. And that just speaks to the diversity of human nervous systems. And but once you can begin to see this in that light, like, oh, you know, it's not just about looking externally for what's good for me, it's also these are things that I can learn to do myself internally that can then support myself. And so a lot of time I think, is spent on the daily trip and in Calm is teaching that perspective, like, Hey, what are we learning here? How can we find this a different at every place in our life. So that's kind of how I think about it.
Eyles:
That's great. Let's turn to sleep a little bit more for a moment. And I know, Kirsten, my wife, who's joining us today, remember when our kids were small, she would say, you would never deny our child a meal or trying to make sure that they were exercising, but we don't treat sleep the same way. Right, we don't sort of treat it as a necessity. And we know that so many people get inadequate levels of sleep, I think like a third of the U.S. population. And I know I've heard from some key groups that we work with, like the National Minority Quality Foundation, that the statistics are even worse for minority populations and communities of color. And we know that there is an association between inadequate sleep and mental distress. How do you view that correlation between sleep and mental health? And what can we do to really address some of those issues?
Ko:
It's such an important issue today, because of the interconnection, as we all know. So, you know, we know that sleep and your mental health are intricately connected. And the research absolutely shows that. And so it's why sleep is always been at Calm one of our core pillars. And we continue to expand that offering on our sleep stories, to sleep meditations, to soundscapes, to sleep music. It's because sleep is really core. And if you practice kind of mindfulness throughout the day, you can actually help to build better sleeping patterns at night. And it really can help us to kind of slow down our own racing minds. You know, and one of the things we've even seen from workforces today, Matt, is that so many employees today go to work, sleep deprived, and that just leads to workforce unproductivity. And you couple that with all the other stresses in life, and it just compounds so it becomes this really vicious cycle. So when you're not sleeping well, you start to get stressed, you have physical ailments, then you have sleep ailments, and then it just continues to compound. So, you know, we definitely see the intricacies of these tied together and really promote trying to get as much sleep and quality sleep as possible.
Evans:
How do we talk to policymakers about all of this? You know, as we mentioned, it's Mental Health Awareness Month. Access is a huge issue, you noted that just now, David. What do we think should be top of mind for policymakers as they address this issue? What would you both like to see Jeff and David? And what do you tell consumers and patients who are looking for help? But most of all, I mean, just how do we talk to policymakers about how do we elevate this issue?
Ko:
I've always felt that mental health is probably one of the largest and most urgent problems our generation. I've kind of said, it's like three things. Your mental health, it's the aging population and climate change, you got to focus. So for us, it's been a started my last company around the aging population. But I really feel the most important problem for us that we could help to solve is the mental health crisis. And that's where we can really impact things.
Ko:
I think, where we talk about policymakers today, we really need to prioritize this, are in their own agendas in their organizations, and how we think about this strategy. We've often talked about health care, if you zoom out, is that it really needs to be a team sport. But this is probably a much larger conversation. And this is things that you touch on your other pods. But it's really made up of individual incentives. So it really becomes really difficult to become a team. And you really need more of a team sport mentality if we're going to do this.
Ko:
Policymakers play a very, very critical role. It's not to say that they're the only ones but they do play a critical role in making sure we get this on their agendas. The other thing is like we as workforces also have an obligation. We have an obligation to our employees to build in these types of mental health strategies into the workplace. For our employees going forward. And then lastly, just as we think about it from health care systems in terms of how they prioritize it as well, they need to help to bridge that gap between your mental and your physical health. And we've seen this with certain policymakers, as you've talked about, who've been more proactive. We've seen policymakers such as Governor Newsom of California, for example, the U.S. Surgeon General, who are really kind of helping to lead the charge in expanding access to mental health. And my hope is that you'll just see more and more of this going forward. Jeff?
Warren:
Yeah, I think about this all the time. This is my number one. For me, it's changing how the culture thinks about practice, actually, that the whole thing is understanding that wherever you are, whether you're in a company, whether you're in a hospital, whether you're going to school, there is a place for this protected space in your day, where you are implementing health, mental health practices, self care practices, meditation practice, and then from that place, seeing how that radiates out. Like, I think about this a lot in the context of school because I would just say, to David's point, I think of it as the central problem. Because once you can, if you can come to a place where you're more grounded, and more sane and more available, then that's your best self to address all other problems, the environmental problem, that aging population problem, justice issues, it all starts with this consciousness. So if you can find some way to for that consciousness to be most available to what's happening in the world, then you're going to have an effect on all the rest of it.
Warren:
So I think a lot about schools like I, I do some consulting with different nonprofits, and about schools and mindfulness type curriculums. And I often think about what a school would look like even in starting as early as like JK and senior kindergarten, where at the center of every curriculum is this understanding of like mental health, this is mental physical health. This is where we explore practice and self regulation, we learn about ourselves and our particular patterns in our nervous systems. And from that learning, that then radiates out and changes how we think about all the other subjects. History becomes a subject that's not just about dry facts, it's about how have we historically addressed our challenges in the past, you know, called studies of different cultures become how do they have these understandings. Science becomes how do we apply these insights and create a better world, you know. Everything comes out of that core of sanity and compassion that you cultivate in your curriculum. And I think that could be true everywhere.
Warren:
So I mean, this is my absolute passion, like so writing and thinking, the more you talk about mental health, the more you de stigmatize it, the more you present practice as this creative challenge that everyone can engage in, every workplace, every individual, every community, the more the insights of that start to inform everything else that you do. So from a policy perspective, practice, practice, practice, where can we put this in work, we create protected spaces to meditate to care for our health, to find the kinds of practices and interventions that are gonna help us that's front and center.
Eyles:
Yeah, and you know, what's so profound about both what you and Jeff and David just said, is, that does not talking about extra money, it's really about being intentional and mindful of making it front and center in that way, which is such an important part, not to just say, let's throw money at a problem, let's actually address it head on and be be thoughtful about it. So I think we're at the point where we ask all of our guests before, we're going to turn it over to Jeff, to lead us in a guided meditation. And I'll ask this to both of you. And maybe I'll start with you, Jeff, and then come to David. So Jeff, what do you think is the next big thing in health?
Warren:
Well, I think it's mental health. There's no question along the lines of what I just said, I think it's the creative application of the practice in all areas of life. I think technology, which is so often seen as the kind of challenge or the problem, or the distractor can be one of the mediums in which that's delivered. So I think it's everything that you're looking at and everything you're interacting with. As part of that interface. There's an understanding of what's best practices for health. Is this sort of sort of website, really, the best practice for health is this sort of app, the best practice for health, is this kind of way of communicating over email, the best practice for health? They'll start to be designed into the protocols and the ways in which you engage with your technology, engage with different environments, engage with different workers. Will be this meta understanding that, wow, this is a mental health question. All of our communication like those are mental health questions. So just the next big thing is that understanding, is bringing that level of insight to all the things that we do that will start to really create profound changes because where our minds, they're in our devices, they're in those interfaces, so that would be my candidate.
Warren:
That's great. David?
Ko:
Love that, plus one to everything that Jeff said there. It's the one thing you always got to ask folks, it's the one thing you should be prepared for. And it's always hard to answer a little bit of this, because it's almost built into what both Matt, you and Laura have talked about so far, which is, you know, you actually said earlier, Matt, the stigma around mental health. And I love the fact that we are, as a society making it so much more approachable. I think back to what Laura was talking about in terms of the mindful minute, which I may take from her in terms of how she works, and talks to her own kids, it got me thinking about my own journey with Calm is, I encourage my children to use Calm because I love the fact that it's an app, that when you're done with it, you feel a little bit better about yourself, not a little bit worse. And so I know there's lots of apps out there today that can make you feel a little bit worse, right? It makes you feel a little bit better.
Ko:
And so when I think about that, in our roles, and the one thing, I look at the ecosystem as a whole, making it much more approachable, making it so that you can feel a little bit better about yourself not a little bit worse, making it so that actually these apps that we're creating with technology, are actually working. But there's so many things out there today, where apps actually aren't helping you. And we need to make sure that they're backed by clinical data science, that, you know, you're actually getting better. And so I think when I look at the ecosystem as a whole, think about that bridge. And then ultimately, lastly, I think about how technology can help you in the gap between your mental health and your physical health and the tight correlation between the two. So over time, I hope all of that comes together, and we can be a part of the solution going forward.
Eyles:
Okay, Jeff, you have the floor, we hope you enjoy this special guided meditation from Calm.
Warren:
Matt, this meditation is inspired by your question, because I'm gonna put out there that the other next big thing in health, maybe its simplicity, maybe it's not doing. But that in mind is our practice. And it's all about making this accessible. So whatever ideas you have about meditation, just park them, put them at the side. Let's let this be about simplicity itself. It's about just sitting here being a body. So if it feels good to have your eyes closed then you can do that or you can have them open looking at the ground in front of you. And you know, you're taking a couple of slow, deliberate breaths. And you're not making this into some thing. It's kind of like you've just had a long day's work, you're home we have this few minutes where you're able to sit on the porch or the stoop and there's nowhere you need to be or want to be. That's what we're talking about. Can you just let yourself sit and be here, maybe distantly? Hearing the sound of this in traffic or maybe you're noticing the feeling of your breath. You're not trying to change anything, you're not uptight about whatever the circumstances are. You sit and breathe and you be a body. You let yourself do something simple without making it into a problem. Thoughts can be there, will be there. You just kind of let them be in the background. You got lots of busy thoughts. You can focus on a simple thing like the breath or the tingling in your hands. But mostly you're being a body here. You're giving yourself permission to not solve a problem, to not figure something out, to not get it right. We're unhooking from all that turnstile spinning all that problem solving energy and we're just letting ourselves rest here. And that really is the essence of the practice of meditation. It's the ground, the more you just let yourself be here, the more you trust that that's okay. It's just a feedback loop. So a few more slow, deliberate breaths. Enjoying this opportunity to take a break.
Warren:
My friends, thank you for your practice. You just meditated.
Eyles:
Yeah, thank you so much. That was amazing. That's great. And a huge thank you to you, David Ko, CEO of Calm, for joining us today, for Laura Evans and all of us here at the Next Big Thing in Health, I'm Matt Eyles, and thank you for listening. If this resonates with you, access more meditations from Jeff on Calm. Hope you enjoy.
